I have a few more thoughts about the murder of George Tiller.
Pro-lifers despise killing. We hate the reduction of the human person to a problem whose solution is death. No pro-lifers will celebrate the death of George Tiller.
My advice to pro-aborts on this is to be careful. George Tiller and his late-term abortion practice, and his close association with HHS Secretary Sebelius, was an embarrassment to you. His "martyrdom" will be much more useful to you than was his practice. You'll be able to spend the next period of time -- and we know it'll be as long as you can make it -- forcing pro-lifers to get off-topic at least long enough to deplore the murder of Tiller the Killer.
My advice: try not let to your glee at his murder show. You guys are the ones who are about death. That you succeeded in converting Scott Roeder to your pro-death worldview is not an indictment of the pro-life position. It is a warning to us all of what lies at the end of the "pro-choice" line of reasoning.
Scott Roeder stopped standing for life; instead, he made a choice. No doubt it was a heart-wrenching decision he made.
Unfortunately, outlawing murder hasn't ended all murders. This was, to use your terminology, a "back-alley" murder. But now you will make George Tiller into the martyr for death. Your sacrament now has a saint. Congratulations.
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23 comments:
Paul,
You are right. Roeder IS NOT Pro-Life. He is on the same level as Tiller & the raest of the abortion industry.
Sadly, Roeder has handed them a ready-made martyr. & they are already running with it to villify the Pro-Life movement. & now we will have to take the time to answer. but we can answer in a way that gets across the Pro-Life message.
Was it morally right for Dietrich Bonhoeffer to attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler? Bonhoeffer is still held in high regard as a Christian and as an individual that fought against the horror of Nazism.
Very different situation. Nazi Germany was a place ruled by the whims of one evil man. We are a nation of laws, and if we do not work within that framework, we will descend into chaos and then tyranny.
Actually, George Tiller was before our corrupt "justice" system and justice was not done. When justice is no longer available, vigilantism will increase. George Tiller was just as much of a mass murderer as someone like Hitler. Hitler's actions were sanctioned by his state and Tiller's actions are sanctioned by our state. Both are evil and evil must be stopped from spreading. Tiller got what was coming to him. The Lord does not like to be mocked. Tiller holding his head high and ushering at a Lutheran church demonstrates that he proudly stood before the Lord justifying his evil deeds. When you do that, you better watch out. Obviously, the individual that killed him broke the law and should be convicted under the law, but Tiller's actions brought about his demise.
Pack, I feared as much when the current administration started negating the negligible gains the pro-life movement made in the last 8 years. Despair will drive these folks to do the wrong thing.
http://shakingoffsleep.blogspot.com/2009/05/audacity-of-dispair.html
BftP:
No. Whatever Tiller may have deserved, it was not for Scott Roeder to give it to him.
The law may have become corrupt in some places, and in some times, but there will be another election and we will have the opportunity to redress those injustices peacefully.
150 years ago, John Brown made the abolitionists' work much harder, and speeded the coming of the Civil War. I fear that Scott Roeder may have done something similar.
This whole murder distracts us from the real issue, which is the murder of children.
Just think of how many children will be murdered from the time of Tiller's murder to the time that the story fades from the media.
"Very different situation. Nazi Germany was a place ruled by the whims of one evil man. We are a nation of laws, and if we do not work within that framework, we will descend into chaos and then tyranny."
Exactly right. Tiller used to be the poster-boy against late-term abortions (which helped us), now he is a "martyr" and the particularly heinous kind of abortion he practiced will be forgotten.
Sic semper Tyranis. Deus vult.
I find it interesting that pro-lifers compare the abortions that have taken place since 1973 to the Holocaust during World War II, but don't believe our society is at all like Nazi Germany. Remember that Nazi Germany came about with an election and some of the same tactics that the Obama administration is currently engaging in, like government controlled industry. Good people, including church leaders, let the power grab happen without a fight. The current situation is like Nazi Germany. We are ruled by the whims of one evil party and already dealing with tyranny.
I also don't understand pro-lifers that are against the death penalty. We are not more civilized because we let level 3 sex offenders and murderers live. By killing evil people who don't respect life, we are showing more respect for life by protecting it from those who would destroy it. Even Jesus himself said that those who hurt children would be better off having a stone tied around them and being thrown into the middle of a body of water. That is the death penalty. We are so soft on crime nowadays that we encourage sex offenders and murderers. I also find it odd that a Christian would be against capital punishment, since without capital punishment Jesus would not have died on a Roman cross and there would not be atonement for sin and everyone would be condemned to hell. Sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood and the Lord himself has given man the authority through government entities to practice the death penalty to stop the spread of evil. Since God does not change, he still gives man the authority, through a justice system, to use the death penalty. Obviously, this executioner went outside of the law, and he will and should suffer the consequences. However, to be pro-life without discernment is not compassionate, it is foolish and not taking seriously enough the effect that a little leaven causes.
I find it interesting that pro-lifers compare the abortions that have taken place since 1973 to the Holocaust during World War II,...
Actually, I compare abortion to slavery.
...but don't believe our society is at all like Nazi Germany. Remember that Nazi Germany came about with an election and some of the same tactics that the Obama administration is currently engaging in, like government controlled industry.
But mainly they used violence; much as I loathe to defend the Administration, there's been nothing like a krystallnacht or burning of the Reichstag.
Good people, including church leaders, let the power grab happen without a fight. The current situation is like Nazi Germany. We are ruled by the whims of one evil party and already dealing with tyranny.
For now, but there's another election next year.
I also don't understand pro-lifers that are against the death penalty.
Perhaps you've heard of a guy called John Paul II?
We are not more civilized because we let level 3 sex offenders and murderers live. By killing evil people who don't respect life, we are showing more respect for life by protecting it from those who would destroy it. Even Jesus himself said that those who hurt children would be better off having a stone tied around them and being thrown into the middle of a body of water. That is the death penalty. We are so soft on crime nowadays that we encourage sex offenders and murderers.
I really think you're going overboard here.
I also find it odd that a Christian would be against capital punishment, since without capital punishment Jesus would not have died on a Roman cross and there would not be atonement for sin and everyone would be condemned to hell. Sin can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood and the Lord himself has given man the authority through government entities to practice the death penalty to stop the spread of evil. Since God does not change, he still gives man the authority, through a justice system, to use the death penalty.
But having the authority to do a thing doesn't necessarily mean that we must.
Obviously, this executioner went outside of the law, and he will and should suffer the consequences. However, to be pro-life without discernment is not compassionate, it is foolish and not taking seriously enough the effect that a little leaven causes.Have you had a look lately at the Catechism on the topic of the death penalty?
You are delusional if you think the pro-lifers despise his killing. The hypocrisy of the religious right is astounding. This killing has set back the pro-life movement in ways you cannot imagine. Dr. Tiller was hero to many...and although his death is tragic, it will serve to strengthen the pro-choice movement. Yes, this is the anonymous poster who preaches Mercy.
Anonymous: You are delusional if you think the pro-lifers despise his killing. Ori: Since Paul is a pro-lifer, this translates to: "You are delusional if you think that you despise his killing". In other words, an anonymous writer on your blog knows you better than you know yourself.
Paul, I don't think you're the delusional one.
Anonymous, the religious right is not monolithic. I don't doubt there are people who rejoice at Dr. Tiller's death. Why do you think they are the majority?
Anonymous, first, as a matter of elementary courtesy, you could leave a name. It doesn't have to be your real name, just a handle we can use to link your comments together.
Second, I see you didn't read the post. Tiller was killed by a convert to the pro-choice cause, and I already said it was a boon to the pro-choice side.
Third, I see you also opted not to take my advice to heart: your glee about this murder is very evident.
"Tiller was killed by a convert to the pro-choice cause, and I already said it was a boon to the pro-choice side."
Oh, c'mon...that's disingenuous at best. You want to say that Roeder acted because of the society that pro-choice people have created, I'd disagree, but at least that's defensible. But to say that he was a "convert to the pro-choice cause" is not -- whether Roeder was pro-life or not, he was certainly anti-abortion, which means he was definitely not a convert to the pro-choice cause.
When Tiller's murderer decided that he had the right to choose to kill George Tiller, he became pro-choice.
I've been very consistent. "Choice" is all about power: the power to kill. When Tiller's murderer arrogated to himself the right to make that choice, he left our side and joined yours.
Pro-life means pro-life.
But you guys really need Roeder to be pro-life. You need to paint us all as terrorists. Islam is the religion of peace. Bullying gays are the exception, not the rule. But Christianity is a religion of hate, and all pro-lifers are terrorists. Your side can't make that case unless Roeder is pro-life.
But if you kill, you aren't pro-life.
You may have been consistent in the mental gymnastics you've engaged in to label Roeder as "pro-choice," but I would suggest that you are much better off just arguing that he's not pro-life. Like I said, this is a credible argument. But asserting that this guy is "pro-choice" because he's "pro-choice" in the way that Paul defines the phrase (but in a way that no one else defines it) only undermines your credibility.
In short, you can credibly distance this guy in terms of him not being "pro-life," but at the end of the day, he committed the murder because he's anti-abortion. People on both sides of the debate know this and by attempting to associate Roeder as being aligned with the "pro-choice" view is both transparent and counter-productive for your cause.
You'd be making perfect sense, except that abortion is murder. So to say that he committed murder because he is anti-murder is nonsense.
The only way to make the slightest sense of it is to apply the same defnition of pro-choice that I've used here for years.
He committed murder because he concluded that he had the right to make that "heart-wrenching choice" to take a human life.
If it seems senseless to you, I'm sorry, but you're the one who wants to keep the killing legal.
Fine....Tiller was killed by a pro-choice convert. I will buy your argument. But my point is that this killing shows that many in the pro-life camp have been exposed as pro-choice (by your definition) as they rejoice in this man's killing. So ultimately this killing weakens your side, as many of the so called pro-life population has some serious soul searching to do following Tiller's death. Secondly, you are wrong about me being gleeful about this murder. Dr. Tiller was a savior to many women, and not a lot of doctor's are willing to do what he did (which is a shame). I can see a silver lining, but I am not gleeful.
Signed Jake...(formally anonymous)
Whoops...sorry, meant to type formerly anonymous. But I suspect you got it anyways.
Jake wrote:
[...] my point is that this killing shows that many in the pro-life camp have been exposed as pro-choice (by your definition) as they rejoice in this man's killing.
Well... somewhat. Two things to remember here, I think:
1) It's completely understandable (and morally licit) to rejoice in the *specific* fact that George Tiller cannot kill any more children, and that his evil acts have been stopped; and many people (especially in our "heart-based, emotion-driven" culture) have a very hard time separating that legitimate reaction from the similar, but illegitimate, reactions of vengeance, revenge, hatred, and the like.
2) You're quite right that rejoicing in *anyone's* death is a sign that something is terribly wrong. There's a story in one of the Passover Haggadahs: when Pharaoh and the Egyptians were wiped out by the return of the Red Sea, the angels in Heaven began to rejoice loudly--but God silenced them, saying: "My creatures are perishing, and you sing praises?" It's right to rejoice in evil being stopped; but we humans have a very hard time separating the sin from the sinner, sometimes.
So ultimately this killing weakens your side, as many of the so called pro-life population has some serious soul searching to do following Tiller's death.
You're quite right, on both counts.
Secondly, you are wrong about me being gleeful about this murder. Dr. Tiller was a savior to many women, and not a lot of doctor's are willing to do what he did (which is a shame). I can see a silver lining, but I am not gleeful.
I do have to ask: on what basis do you say (above) that pro-lifers have "soul-searching" to do? Simply because they were inconsistent? That could just as easily be foolishness or ignorance, rather than moral wrongdoing. But since you claim that George Tiller was a "savior" to many women (*because* of his killing of their unborn children, I assume?), how do you reconcile that with your own regret at George Tiller's murder? Do you value him as a human being with intrinsic value (which was profaned with murder), or did you value him only insofar as you found him and his business tactically useful?
paladin:
Well said. You writing style is quite elegant. Do you perhaps have anything published?
:) Careful... my writing style is worthy of being banned in certain areas of Great Britain, according to some commenters on this blog from the Sceptred Isle...
Thanks, though! And re: being published, it depends: does a short story that won 2nd prize (at a competition put on by the local community college when I was 16 years old) count? Otherwise, my humble and low-traffic blog is my only pseudo-published work.
(Given the length of some of my posts and comments, I think the environmentalists would lynch me for killing trees enough to publish anything of mine! Hence the newly-established "Paladin Limit" of 4096 characters per comment, on Blogger; maybe *that* will get me famous... :)
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