The Question of Whether to Deny Communion to Public Supporters of Abortion
I haven't blogged about this because I was busy thinking about it. Now I think I'm ready to say something.To recap: the Blogosphere has been bubbling since the Holy Father's visit about pro-abortion Catholic politicians like Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, Dodd, and Giuliani receiving Communion at papal masses when the Pope visited Washington and New York last month. It was well known in advance that these famous supporters of abortion, some of the most prominent Catholic pro-aborts in the world, would approach to receive Holy Communion.
I've already written about my disappointment that they were admitted to communion at a mass celebrated by the Pope. Clearly, neither the Holy Father, the Papal Nuncio, nor the Archbishops of those dioceses, took any action to prevent this from happening. My view is that this lack of action is highly indicative, and that it places people like me (who would prefer to see Communion denied to famous pro-aborts) solidly in the wrong.
Within minutes after my post, it was brought to my attention that the well-respected John Allen at the not-so-well-respected National Catholic Reporter had made essentially the same argument.
Conservative columnist (and Catholic) Robert Novak, at The Washington Post, published a column blaming Cardinal Egan of New York and Archbishop Wuerl of Washington for permitting this to happen.
Cardinal Egan quickly responded with a statement faulting Mayor Giuliani (this link is to Father Z's excellent blog for his fine analysis) for violating a private agreement they'd reached several years ago, to the effect that Giuliani would not receive communion while he still supported abortion. This was a remarkable rebuke, and many people chose to remark on it. In a comment to a post at the very fine blog Pro Ecclesia on the topic, I wrote:
You know, as nice as it is to see Cardinal Egan's comments, I wonder if it doesn't just cause more harm in the long run if the effect will be to show in even sharper the relief the acquiescence to abortion of prelates like Archbishop Wuerl.In a similar discussion at the very good Southern Appeal blogger Morning's Minion of Vox Nova (where one can often read defenses of pro-abortion politicians written from a Catholic perspective) (there's no link because one of my rules for blogging is that life is too short to read Vox Nova) called my remarks about Archbishop Wuerl "outrageous and despicable". Perhaps they were. All I know is that the American bishop who could do the most to prevent people from saying "I'm Catholic and I support abortion rights" has failed to prevent anyone from saying that, and is not making any public effort in that respect, and has no successes to show for any private efforts he may be making. That looks like acquiescence to me.
Meanwhile, the no-longer-anonymous Anchoress seems to feel that we shouldn't care about this question. At least she doesn't seem to want to.
And then Archbishop Wuerl released a statement, and it still looks like acquiescence to me. It's not his job, he says, to protect the sacrament from national politicians who are just visiting his turf. That's the job of their own local bishops.
And then at Rich Leonardi's excellent blog Ten Reasons, Rich's post and its subsequent comments finally brought me clarity on this issue. I had expressed my discouragement on the issue, and several subsequent commenters encouraged me to write letters and pray, and not give up hope.
It's very much as the piercing wit of Diogenes said at Off the Record:
Imagine a mother whose toddlers crawl past her legs under the kitchen sink, open various bottles marked with the skull-and-crossbones, pour the contents into sippy-cups, and then trot off drinking the contents while she shakes her head in bemused resignation. Either the woman is criminally negligent, or she doesn't believe the marked bottles really contain poison. There is no third possibility.It is very evidently the settled teaching of the Catholic Church -- the Pope and the bishops teaching in unison -- that even the most prominent and vocal supporter of abortion cannot face even the slightest canonical consequence for their advocacy.
The eerie but incontestable fact is that most Catholic pastors behave like this unnaturally nonchalant mother. The Church still labels certain bottles with the skull-and-crossbones -- i.e., she still professes a belief in mortal (soul-destroying) sins, but even those of her clergy who give verbal assent to Church doctrine seldom conduct their office in a way that is intelligible if the doctrine were true.
And why is this? It is traditionally the duty of a bishop to "teach, sanctify and govern." Perhaps it's much harder to govern than to teach and sanctify. Perhaps governance is where the teaching is given teeth, and a toothless teaching is much less frightening.
As it is, the stated policy of the USCCB is that any bishop is free to take action on this issue, or not. And so the vast majority (the exceptions can be counted on the fingers of one hand) take the path of least resistance. I expect that in future, it will be enforced that no bishop may deny communion to prominent abortion rights advocates.
Clearly, as evidenced by the determined refusal to act by the bishops, the papal nuncio, and even the Holy Father, there is no danger to the souls of Speaker Pelosi, Senator Kennedy, Senator Kerry, Senator Dodd, and all the rest (I could mention from my own state Senator Durbin, Mayor Daley, Governor Blagojevich, and many other pro-aborts who are routinely admitted to communion by Cardinal George).
Just as clearly, there is no danger of legitimate scandal on the part of the laity. Clearly there is nothing wrong with people like me being led to believe that it is fully acceptable to dissent from the toothless teaching that abortion is wrong, and even to dissent publicly. Such dissent is not and should not be any barrier to receiving communion.
I can confidently say this because, if souls were in danger, if scandal were a concern, surely the bishops would not wait to be deluged with letters from the laity. The Church is not a democracy. The rules to be followed are explicit.
Either, for the good of the soul of the public dissenter, and for the avoidance of scandal, a public abortion supporter should be denied communion; or else it's OK to vocally and publicly dissent from the Church's teaching on abortion. The bishops are not stupid men; they know what is at stake. Clearly, given their actions, there is really no problem.
Or else they are willfully negligent on such a scale as to boggle the mind. I don't see a third possibility here.
Would anyone care to weigh in and claim that it's negligence? That would be "outrageous and despicable". But would it be untrue?












































33 comments:
I'm pretty ignorant about your theology - may I ask a few questions?
1. If a soul is already in a state of mortal sin (for example for supporting abortion), does taking communion hurt that soul further? Or is there just one hell and barring repentance it's going there either way?
2. Is the problem that any anti-abortion Catholics might conclude from this that abortion is actually OK according to Church teachings? Do church practices take priority over the Catechism?
3. If your current bishop appears to violate cannon law, are you obligated to follow that bishop? Or can you follow a bishop with a different diocese that you consider more faithful?
Ori,
1. There is just one hell, but we believe that sin is a matter of degree, and not just a boolean test. That is, a mortal sin can be compounded with another mortal sin, such as receiving the Eucharist unworthily.
2. Most people don't read the Catechism, but do see Church practice. This is called "giving scandal."
3. No. My bishop is my bishop. The only appeal from my bishop is to the Bishop of Rome.
But the important question is not who best conforms to what I "consider more faithful". The question is what's true. I am not competent to judge the compliance of my bishop with canon law, much less the compliance of the entire national bishops' conference. As a layman and a regular guy, I look to them, not my own conscience, to be taught the truth. And what I am taught by them is that there is no conflict between support for abortion and being in full communion with the Church.
Because if there were such a conflict, to do so would place in jeopardy the soul of the person receiving unworthily, and would give scandal to the faithful. Surely my bishop, the Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago (who also happens to be President of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops), nor any other bishop would not tolerate such an occurrence to be repeated every Sunday within his jurisdiction.
Therefore, since even the Holy Father tolerated the reception of communion by famous pro-abortion politicians at masses at which he was the principle celebrant, clearly there can be no conflict.
It is incorrect because while the ordinary teaching authority of the Archdiocese of Washington is clearly in error over this, the Universal one is not. So long as the Roman Curia and even one diocese operate correctly, the Church itself does not teach error, even by accident.
That leaves the matter of the Archdiocese of Washington, and the objective nature of its predicament, which is pretty bad.
I'm strangely fired-up on this one. Don't get me wrong: I am 100% pro-life (no abortions, no capital punishment, and no shooting abortion doctors).
I have had two (2) children entirely out of wedlock. Different fathers, even (hell, and one was technically married to someone else at the time). But I went to church with the kids this morning, and took communion. Unworthily? I guess. But just before communion, the entire congregation recited, "Lord, I am not worthy to receive You. But only say the word, and I shall be healed."
I don't believe sinning and then receiving communion is a "mortal sin," as you called it. If that was the case, there would be no one in the church.
"Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.."
Cubegirl, I went through that one, too. Don't take a blogger's word for it, check with your priest.
But the teaching is, if you are conscious of unrepented mortal sin, you should abstain from Communion until you have gone to confession and been absolved.
If I had been at your parish yesterday, and witnessed you receiving communion, I would not assume that you had not already been to confession and received absolution.
So long as the Roman Curia and even one diocese operate correctly, the Church itself does not teach error...
So Steven, is the Roman Curia operating correctly? Did the Holy Father act to prevent this from happening at masses where he was the celebrant?
It's amusing that 'the Anchoress' thinks we should 'no longer care' about this.
My question: who cares what 'the Anchoress' thinks--family name or no?
Further--Cubegirl uses a very non-RC construction when she posts "took communion."
That's not the RC formulation.
I'll admit that I'm reeeeeeally stretching the benefit of the doubt, here... but I'm still willing to believe that Pope Benedict XVI was innocent of duplicity/complicity in the "Pro-Aborts Communion at Papal Masses" debacle, so far as it went... and that the souls of several bishops, priests and deacons who were distributing Holy Communion to those pro-abortion politicians are now (if they weren't already) in very serious danger. I think especially of the priest who went out of his way to give Holy Communion to Ted Kennedy...
Now, while I'm willing to believe that the Holy Father was surprised (or "dodged") on-site (i.e. at the Papal Masses), it's less easy to believe that he hasn't heard *by now* about these pro-abort politicians having received Holy Communion without any visible sign of repentance. I would very much like some Vatican clarity on that issue.
As an aside, to CubeGirl: the "Lord, I am not worthy", if said with sincere contrition, is able to obtain the forgiveness of VENIAL sins... but not mortal sins. Please don't take this as any sort of judgment against you; I believe that offering the truth to those who need it (myself included) is an act of love, when done without rancor, etc. But please don't stay away from the Sacrament of Penance, if you've been doing so; it's the "lifeline of resurrection" given to us by Jesus, Himself (cf. John 20:21-23)! Since He gave it as a gift to us personally, isn't it worth opening it and using it?
Paul: As a layman and a regular guy, I look to them, not my own conscience, to be taught the truth. And what I am taught by them is that there is no conflict between support for abortion and being in full communion with the Church.
Ori: If I understand you correctly, you used to think that it was a mortal sin to receive communion unworthily, and now seeing that actions of the bishops you don't. There was no sarcasm is your message - just a desire to understand.
Do you conclude that the historic practice of denying communion to such sinners was a teaching method (a way to emphasize the seriousness of the sin)? Teaching methods depend on the people being taught. In this case, if denying communion no longer wakes the sinner to the seriousness of the sin, then it is no longer an effective way to teach.
Ori,
I'll go out on a limb (always a dangerous venture) and hazard a guess that Paul is using somewhat biting irony to express his disgust, dismay, and feelings of betrayal at the hands of clergy/hierarchy who have not "taught, sanctified and governed" as their positions clearly demand.
This doesn't affect the infallibility of the Church's Magisterium, true (since this is by bad example and/or omission that scandal is being put forth--it's not the same as if the Pope had proclaimed, ex cathedra, that abortion is now "okay"--but it certainly causes scandal (i.e. makes it easier for others to act/believe badly by following a bad example).
As for withholding Holy Communion from notorious sinners, I want to be sure you're not left with the idea of "denying a treat because someone was being naughty" (as some ill-catechized Catholics are wont to believe, I'm afraid); it's of a far greater magnitude than that. If one is not in communion with the Church--either through the embrace of a different creed, through having no creed at all, or through destroying the life of God (which we call "grace"--which comes from God only through Christ's Church) within oneself through mortal sin--then any attempt to "force" reception of Holy Communion is singularly analogous to a rape. As such, the neglect of various bishops to deny Holy Communion to notorious sinners, heretics, and the like is very much like having them turn a blind eye to a rape in progress. For those who knowingly and willfully *give* Holy Communion to such people, well... what would you call someone who took an unwilling girl and handed her to a rapist for the express purpose of--well--you know...?
I hope I've made the *gravity* of the situation clear, at least. This is not some trifling matter of titles and feelings.
In Christ,
Brian
I don't believe sinning and then receiving communion is a "mortal sin," as you called it. If that was the case, there would be no one in the church.
This is so vague a statement I really have to clarify. Sinning and receiving communion is not a mortal sin if the sins are venial and you are sorry for them.
Receiving communion when in a state of unconfessed mortal sin compounds it with another mortal sin.
And the inability to receive communion in no way eliminates your obligation to attend Mass. Even those who are formally excommunicated are obligated to attend Mass.
Wow. So ummm, I realize many of you are more devoutly Catholic than I am, and I REALLY don't mean to insult anyone. I have a lot of confusion (and maybe a little resentment) about the Church, and should probably bow out of this conversation. I do think (again, not to insult anyone) that Jesus and God know what is in our hearts, and the only real judgement comes from Him. :)
Cubegirl, I wish you would feel welcome to hang around; I don't think anyone's been offended by anything you've said here.
Of course judgment comes from God, but he gave to his Church what St. Paul calls the "ministry of reconciliation", and to his priests the power to forgive or retain sins.
God is not the only one who knows what's in your heart. You too know what's in your own heart. And, if you proclaim what's in your heart to the whole world, then we would all know what's in your heart.
Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Rudy Giuliani, and many other Catholic legislators and public officials have, through their actions and public statements and even (in the case of Giuliani) their financial contributions, proclaimed their support of abortion "rights". We know what's in their hearts.
Now, if you walk into my parish and approach the altar for communion, I don't know that you didn't just come out of the confessional and are in a perfect state of grace. But with a public supporter of abortion, one who's been so for many years, well, such a public sin calls for a public repentance.
Now, there's an old legal maxim, "silence implies consent". What I'm seeing among our bishops -- and the Holy Father -- is that their lack of action implies their consent that public supporters of abortion should receive communion.
Now, if publicly supporting abortion "rights" is a mortal sin, then they would be receiving communion unworthily, which would be compounding their sin, and even, as Archbishop Burke has said, placing the soul of the Eucharistic minister in jeopardy of mortal sin.
Therefore, I must conclude either that the bishops' consent is a matter of negligence of their duties on such a scale as to boggle the mind, or else it is not a mortal sin to publicly support abortion rights.
Can anyone advise me as to which is the more charitable interpretation to apply to this question?
cubegirl: I do think (again, not to insult anyone) that Jesus and God know what is in our hearts, and the only real judgement comes from Him. :)
Ori: Are you talking about yourself and the suggestion you go to confession prior to mass? It seems to me that Paul and Brian suggest that because human beings have a strong capacity for self deception. God knows what is in your heart, but you don't. Going to confession is a way to make sure you're over the sin. In this case, BTW, that wouldn't mean being sorry for your kids - just wishing you conceived them differently, with a father who is married to you and would help you raise them.
Now, if you walk into my parish and approach the altar for communion, I don't know that you didn't just come out of the confessional and are in a perfect state of grace. But with a public supporter of abortion, one who's been so for many years, well, such a public sin calls for a public repentance.
Paul:
I feel almost a little silly for asking this, but I wanted to get your take on this, because it has been nagging me. Is there a practical defense to be made of non-refusal on the grounds that said politician may have repented of his position on abortion - not to our knowledge - expressed his contrition, and before making public his or her change of heart, receives Communion? Yes, this is a hiiiiiiighly unlikely scenario, but it could be the only canonical justification not to refuse Communion.
The only other - again, admittedly somewhat arcane - objection would be that we only single out well known pro-abortion Catholics. For example, we all know who John Kerry and Rudy Giuliani are and what they look like, and so any Priest or Bishop would instantly recognize them and what they believe. But there are a number of relatively unknown House members - and even some Senators - that might not be instantly recognizeable, especially to a Priest or Bishop outside their home diocese. Heck, I am not sure I'd recognize my Rep if I saw him, and I'm a political junkie.
I am with you on this issue, make no mistake about it, but these are two niggling issues that I have been puzzling over.
I wrote this at the Curt Jester's blog:
Simple, public sin, public penance, private sin, private penance. Simple as that. When someone is showing to the public that they are in sin, it causes scandal to the Faithful who are living out the teachings of the Church. To eliviate this scandal, a public change of heart, penance needs to be performed for the sake of preventing scandal. This is why we are able to "judge" the state of the soul of Guliani, we're not actually judging, it's a public offense against an objective fact, which is never judging
Now what happened at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered by the Holy Father was disobedience on the Bishops' parts. The position of the Church is clear (Canon 915..(Or as I like to call it the public sinners clause)). The Church is perfect ran by human beings who aren't. That's why there's disobedience on this issue plain and simple.
Paul wrote:
Therefore, I must conclude either that the bishops' consent is a matter of negligence of their duties on such a scale as to boggle the mind, or else it is not a mortal sin to publicly support abortion rights. Can anyone advise me as to which is the more charitable interpretation to apply to this question?
Well... St. Teresa Benedicta of the Holy Cross (Edith Stein) wrote, "Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie." Since charity is perfect love, and perfect love is of God (Who can neither deceive nor be deceived, and Who cannot contradict Himself), then the most charitable interpretation would be that which--without sinning--is most in harmony with the truth.
Let's look at the points:
1) Abortion is an "inhuman crime" (cf. Gaudium et Spes, 51:3) which can never be justified, and "this teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable" (cf. CCC 2271)
2) Those who promote grave moral evils, in addition to complicity in such an inhuman crime (i.e. empowering it to happen by removing legal barriers, etc.), commit the grave sin of scandal by leading weak Catholics (and others) into assuming that abortion is morally acceptable (or at least tolerable):
"Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6) Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing. (Matthew 7:15)
3) Most bishops of the United States (and others) have knowingly and willfully refused to deny Holy Communion to pro-abortion politicians; when the matter of "refusing" came up for a conference vote, the Bishops rejected a "refusal policy" by a vote of something like 160 to 6 (or thereabouts). God alone knows their culpability... but, from where I sit, they really can't plead ignorance.
I'm still willing to believe that Pope Benedict was taken by surprise... and he's possibly being advised (by ill-thinking people) "not to make waves, so as to prevent an American schism, etc., etc."., but his silence is certainly a problem. Even so... all the silence and negligence in the world won't change the moral evil of "abortion promotion (or authorization)". Think of the (relatively few) corrupt popes in our history--some of them womanizers, simonizers, nepotists, and even conspirators in murder--and none of them were allowed by the Holy Spirit to teach even the slightest particle of error from the Chair of Peter. Did they mislead people by their actions and inactions? Certainly... and I tremble at the judgment that awaited them. But it's a logical certainty that, no matter what any Church member (clergy or otherwise) says or doesn't say, the promotion (i.e. voting for) abortion will never be anything but an objectively grave moral evil.
In Christ,
Brian
Phooey... I meant, in the paragraph under my "point #2", to list the Catechism reference for that quoted paragraph: CCC #2285!
In Christ,
Brian
Ori, that's exactly right; we'll make a Catholic of you yet!
Cranky, I agree with Joe. If you're a priest, and I come to you in confession, and tell you that I'm a 6-term U.S. Senator who has spent my entire adult life fighting to advance abortion "rights" in law and in culture, opposed judges, fought against pro-life legislation, etc., etc., but now I've seen the error of my ways, and I hereby confess and repent.
Do you give me three Hail Marys as penance?
Or would your penance be more along the lines of: Make a Novena. Additionally, on the first day of the Novena, hold a press conference to announce that you will henceforth be pro-life. On the second day of the Novena, return all campaign contributions from pro-abortion groups, and renounce their endorsements. On the third day of the Novena... etc., etc.
And then, after you've done all that, come back to me for absolution.
How many times do these people confess on Saturday that they're pro-abortion, take Communion on Sunday, and then go vote for more pro-abortion legislation on Tuesday? If you're his pastor, how many times do you put up with that?
But Joe asserts that it's disobedience on the Bishops' parts. Was it? Did the Holy Father actually tell them, "don't let this happen at my masses"? I'm thinking they wouldn't disobey a direct instruction.
And the Holy Father has been to the U.S. before. He knows the score here. He knew that public pro-aborts would approach for communion. Why didn't he make this a teaching moment for us all? And why doesn't he realize that in not taking action, he did make this a teaching moment for us all?
The lesson I learned: It's OK to dissent from Church teaching on abortion. Right?
I mean, the pope and the bishops in unison with him couldn't be so negligent as that, could they? In this day and age?
Paul: Ori, that's exactly right; we'll make a Catholic of you yet!
Ori: Coming from you that's a compliment, and I thank you. However, I think it's unlikely. There is a huge gulf between understanding a system intellectually and accepting it as the truth. For me, that's a lot bigger than learning a particular system of thought.
To pick one example that is pertinent to this discussion, to be Catholic (or an Orthodox Jew) one has to believe that the best way God the omnipotent found to communicate a message of vital importance is through fallible human intermediaries. Even if their message is transmitted correctly, their behavior often casts doubts upon it.
Brian: But it's a logical certainty that, no matter what any Church member (clergy or otherwise) says or doesn't say, the promotion (i.e. voting for) abortion will never be anything but an objectively grave moral evil.
Ori: For you abortion is a non-negotiable. If I understand that correctly, it means if the Pope himself were to tell you that abortion is OK you would do the following:
1. Tell the person you previously considered the pope to go away.
2. Thank God for showing you that the person you've been following is actually an anti-pope.
3. Pray for guidance that you may know who is the true heir to St. Peter and follow him.
What about receiving communion only in a state of grace? Earlier you mentioned it's like rape - is that point as firm as being against abortions, or is it an opinion that can change or a discipline that can be modified?
Ori wrote, in reply to my post:
For you abortion is a non-negotiable.
True, but that's not putting it quite accurately; for the *Church* (i.e. not just me), abortion is a "non-negotiable" (i.e. an objective moral evil), and that's an article of the Faith--not simply a preference, present disciplinary policy, or fad. More on that, below...
If I understand that correctly, it means if the Pope himself were to tell you that abortion is OK you would do the following:
1. Tell the person you previously considered the pope to go away.
2. Thank God for showing you that the person you've been following is actually an anti-pope.
3. Pray for guidance that you may know who is the true heir to St. Peter and follow him.
:) Good effort--but none of the above, actually. Any pope who was validly elected/confirmed is a valid pope, no matter what errors, lies, or sins he might commit as an individual. If a pope (God forbid) were to tell me (personally) that abortion was okay, I would follow the lead of the second philosopher in George Weigel's account:
A distinguished Catholic philosopher who thinks himself extremely orthodox once said, "If the Pope said, '2+2=5,' I'd believe him." Another distinguished philosopher, just as committed to the papacy as his colleague, gave the correct and far more orthodox response: "If the Pope said '2+2=5,' I'd say publicly, 'Perhaps I have misunderstood His Holiness's meaning.' Privately I would pray for his sanity."
As a related point: Infallibility is a "negative" protection, by which (among other details) the Pope is prevented from proclaiming a false idea as a doctrine, binding on the entire Church under pain of heresy. As such, while it might be possible for an insane and/or morally corrupt pope to advocate abortion as an individual (perish the very thought!), it would be utterly impossible for that same pope to bind the entire Church to that "new doctrine"; the Holy Spirit would prevent him from doing so, even if the only means for doing so involved striking the man dead.
Ori writes:
What about receiving communion only in a state of grace? Earlier you mentioned it's like rape - is that point as firm as being against abortions, or is it an opinion that can change or a discipline that can be modified?
That's as firm as can be, since it's sin Sacred Scripture (i.e. the Bible) itself:
"Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
In Christ,
Brian
Whoops... I really *did* mean to write:
"That's as firm as can be, since it's IN Sacred Scripture"
...as opposed to:
"That's as firm as can be, since it's SIN Sacred Scripture"
Talk about your bad typos... :)
In Christ,
Brian
Brian, I didn't mean to trivialize your objection by calling it "non-negotiable". Sorry if I gave that impression. I meant "non-negotiable" to mean exactly that - it's one of those things you cannot deny and remain Catholic, and that true Catholics would defend to the death if need me.
Brian: it would be utterly impossible for that same pope to bind the entire Church to that "new doctrine"; the Holy Spirit would prevent him from doing so, even if the only means for doing so involved striking the man dead.
Ori: I didn't realize the limits on the doctrine of papal infallibility - thanks for teaching me.
Brian: That's as firm as can be, since it's in Sacred Scripture (i.e. the Bible) itself:
Ori: So the New Testament is as authoritative as papal doctrine, and you don't expect the two to ever contradict each other - correct?
Ori, there is no such thing as "papal doctrine".
The Church teaches what God has revealed. The Church cannot add to that "deposit of faith", nor take away from it.
Jesus, who is God, came in person and taught the Apostles, who passed along his teaching to their own disciples.
Some of those were inspired by the Holy Spirit, who is God, to write down those teachings, and that's where we get the New Testament.
We also believe that the Old Testament prophets spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Finally, we believe that the Church, and especially the Pope, is protected from passing on or interpreting this teaching in error, again, by the Holy Spirit.
So we have Sacred Scripture -- that is, what's written down -- and we have Sacred Tradition -- the teachings that were not written down, and these never conflict. And we have the Church to interpret them both for us with out error.
All of which is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Ok, I skimmed most of this.
Ori, I would never EVER wish my children were conceived differently, because I wouldn't have the ones I have now. This is the plan God has for me.. and them. I love them to BITS, and even if I was married to their father(s) I could quite possibly be in a miserable marriage.. yes?
Ok. And maybe a few of my comments are me picking and choosing which bits of Catholicism I agree with and don't agree with (and yes, you're going to come down on me like a plague of frogs, I know). I don't agree with reconciliation. I just don't, and that's ok. It's OK to think for yourself, and agree to disagree. I don't think someone who studied in a seminary has the authority to forgive my sins. Would I just tell them I'd wished I'd done things differently? No. Cause I don't. I also don't think a priest or pope or parishoner should be forcing people -- even public pro-abortionists into reconciliation. Because that would clearly be judging them. (I know. Jesus said it was right. But I think Jesus was a REALLY smart guy, too. And I think a lot of the things He said were often figurative in nature.)
Anyway, off topic. There's other things I don't like either. Like how the church would have insisted on my parents' marriage being annulled after 20-odd years just so they could remarry in a church. That would effectively make me illegitimate.. right? It's silly. I think the church is a few hundred years behind, but is starting to catch up. I hear clucks of disapproval, but my children are baptized without father(s) present. Birth control is acceptable now (correct me if I'm wrong?), and more and more priests seem to be accepting of cohabitation.
Anyway. Jesus knows what happens behind closed doors. He knows how we treat our family and friends. He knows when we're happy and when we hurt. And the only one we need to worry about pleasing at the end of our lives is Him. So... if I have another truckload of children out of wedlock, or a pro-abortionist takes communion and in doing so, compounds a mortal sin, let his Judge deal with him. Not the Pope, not the clergyman, and not the parishoners ;)
Cubegirl: I don't agree with reconciliation. I just don't, and that's ok. It's OK to think for yourself, and agree to disagree. I don't think someone who studied in a seminary has the authority to forgive my sins.
Ori: In other words, you believe that the messages of God are received primarily through our individual consciences, rather than through human intermediaries, such as a priest. I do too. As I mentioned earlier on this blog, I'm a Heterodox Jew, not a Catholic.
If it's not too rude, may I ask why you go to a Catholic church rather than a Protestant denomination that agrees with your philosophy?
Cubegirl, I really, really, don't want to seem like I'm coming down "like a plague of frogs" on you.
It's clear to me that you deny the teaching authority of the Church. In your view, God doesn't protect the Catholic Church from teaching error, even if it's taught that error from it very first days. I suspect you think parts of Scripture are wrong, as well (such as when Jesus tells the Apostles, "whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, whose sins you retain are retained," from this Sunday's gospel reading. Not exactly "figurative" language, that.)
(By the way, it's not time in seminary, but the gift the Holy Spirit given in ordination that makes a priest. Lots of former seminarians never become priests.)
Doesn't that mean that you are claiming for yourself the authority to say what is true and what isn't? You said It's OK to think for yourself, and agree to disagree.. In my faith, the Bishop of Rome is the Pope. In your faith, it looks to me like you are the Pope.
Also, you note that annulment effectively makes children illegitimate. It doesn't. It's one thing to fault the church for teaching things you don't agree with (such as reconciliation with Christ through His priesthood), but I don't think it's fair of you to criticize the Church for teaching something it doesn't teach that you don't agree with.
And I don't disapprove that your children are baptized. Fathers present or not.
Hi, cubegirl! Good to see you back...
You wrote:
> I don't agree with reconciliation. I just don't,
> and that's ok. It's OK to think for yourself, and
> agree to disagree.
I have to tread carefully, here... because I disagree with many of your points, but I don't want to offend you by giving you the impression that I disrespect *you*, as a *person*. Could you trust my good intentions on that, at least, no matter if any words of mine might anger you?
Anyway... as to your point: if your words (and my own experiences) are any indicator, I do wonder if you're using more "feelings" than "thinking" in your stance against the Sacrament of Penance. You may be able to answer this for me: is your problem with the Sacrament an emotional revulsion, or is there something you find logically flawed about it? (Or both?)
> I don't think someone who studied in a seminary
> has the authority to forgive my sins.
That's true, so far as it goes; I studied in the seminary (for two years--it was a very liberal, heterodox seminary, but that's another topic), and I don't have the authority to forgive your sins, because I'm not a validly ordained priest with the authoritative faculties to do so. (Now, if you were hypothetically to kick me in the shins, or something--I could forgive *that*, insofar as an offense to *me* is concerned!) It's not *study* which authorizes a man to forgive sins (otherwise, atheist professors could do so!); it's Jesus, Himself, Who gave His apostles and their successors (and their delegates) the authority to forgive sins:
--- quote ---
Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.
He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
(the Gospel of John, chapter 20, verses 19-23)
--- end quote ---
This seems rather clear; Jesus alone has the authority to forgive sins (because He's God), but He gave the apostles His Own authority to forgive sins. We're human, after all; God knows that we need to *hear* the words, "I absolve you of your sins", instead of relying on fleeting hopes (or even wishful thinking) and being forever plagued by doubt!
> Would I just tell them I'd wished I'd done
> things differently? No. Cause I don't.
Well... (and I need to tread *reeeeally* delicately, here, because I sense this is a very sensitive issue for you... and rightly so)... don't you wish that things had *worked out* differently (i.e. that your very same children were secure in a marriage which you had to a loving, stable, self-sacrificing man who would rather die than leave you or use you)?
> I also don't think a priest or pope or parishoner
> should be forcing people -- even public
> pro-abortionists into reconciliation.
I don't think they do... and I don't think they can. People can certainly try to *convince* such people to abandon their sins, but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head, in such cases. As for withholding Holy Communion from such people: even secular organizations do the same (or more), when they withdraw benefits from people who refuse to pay dues, or attend meetings, or what-have-you. Why should the Church be persecuted into accepting everybody and anybody to all of the Sacraments, etc., especially since She (the Church) knows that spiritual life and death are at stake (rather than fish dinners at the Elks club, or free parking at the gold range)?
> Because that would clearly be judging them.
I don't agree. I think it would be judging their *actions* (which are quite easy to see), and it would be judging whether such a person is truly living up to what they promised at their Baptisms, Confirmations, Eucharists, etc. Woudl it be "judging" for an Elks club to drop a member from their rolls who hadn't paid dues or attended meetings for several years, but who still wanted the free parking space (for purposes of shopping easily at the mall next-door to the Elks lodge)?
> (I know. Jesus said it was right. But I think
> Jesus was a REALLY smart guy, too. And I think
> a lot of the things He said were often
> figurative in nature.)
That leaves a problem, though: sonce some of Jesus' sayings were literal and some were figurative, how would you (or anyone else) know the difference? I'm not worried about Jesus' intelligence (which is beyond question); I'm worried about *ours*.
> There's other things I don't like either. Like how > the church would have insisted on my parents'
> marriage being annulled after 20-odd years just
> so they could remarry in a church. That would
> effectively make me illegitimate.. right?
Not at all. Legitimacy is a matter for civil law, not for Church law--and if the parents were in a legal, civil marriage when a child was conceived, then that child is legitimate. But even Canon (Church) Law specifically reassures you on that point: "[Can. 1137] Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative [i.e. presumed valid] marriage are legitimate."
> I think the church is a few hundred years
> behind, but is starting to catch up.
You'd have to be specific in examples, for me to comment on that... but I'd add the caution: it's not always an advantage to be "further along" something; think of someone whose leukemia was "further along", for example.
> I hear clucks of disapproval, but my children
> are baptized without father(s) present.
The presence of the father is greatly to be desired (ordinarily), but it's not required: "[Canon 868.1: For an infant to be baptized lawfully it is required that the parents, or at least one of them, or the person who lawfully holds their place, give their consent[...]"
In fact, anyone can be baptized by anyone (even an atheist), without any family members at all (including the mother), if the candidate is in danger of death.
> Birth control is acceptable now (correct me
> if I'm wrong?),
Well... I'd have to ask: acceptable by *whom*? Certainly, our secular culture (and the large number of poorly-catechized Catholics who follow it--myself included, until very recently) accepts it... but that's not the point, if we're talking about "the Church". The easiest way to find what the Church teaches (as opposed to the opinions of individual Catholic lay people, priests, nuns, or even bishops) is to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's available online:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Here's the relevant section about artificial birth control (which explains that artificial birth control is always morally wrong):
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2366
> and more and more priests seem to be accepting
> of cohabitation.
Here's the Catechism on that point (which explains that cohabitation--i.e. presumably involving an unmarried man and woman having sex--is morally wrong):
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2390
> Anyway. Jesus knows what happens behind closed
> doors. He knows how we treat our family and
> friends. He knows when we're happy and when we
> hurt. And the only one we need to worry about
> pleasing at the end of our lives is Him.
That's absolutely true.
I'd add, though, that Jesus didn't leave us "guessing" about what would please Him, and what would offend Him. What He asks of us is well known, and it's not simply a matter of individual taste.
> So... if I have another truckload of children
> out of wedlock, or a pro-abortionist takes
> communion and in doing so, compounds a mortal sin,
> let his Judge deal with him.
Are we really to be so callous as all that? If someone is burning to death, am I to shrug my shoulders and say, "That's the fire department's job, not mine"? If we know that someone is doing incredible damage to themselves and others, we have a *responsibility* to intervene! Jesus Himself said to rebuke those who sin (cf. Matthew 18:18), and St. James says, "My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)
No... we can't simply be callous and uncaring about the sins and dangers of others. We must pursue them in love, and show them (patiently, kindly, but firmly) where they are wrong, and how to rememdy that wrong. If I let you die of self-ingested poison, I am not loving you; I am despising you...
God bless your discernment in all this; please write back if you have specific questions! I (and we) so desperately want to help!!
In Christ,
Brian
Ori writes:
Brian, I didn't mean to trivialize your objection by calling it "non-negotiable". Sorry if I gave that impression.
:) I didn't take it that way at all; be not afraid!
Brian: That's as firm as can be, since it's in Sacred Scripture (i.e. the Bible) itself:
Ori: So the New Testament is as authoritative as papal doctrine, and you don't expect the two to ever contradict each other - correct?
Paul addressed the formal definition of the "Sacred Deposit of Faith" (i.e. the sum-total of all that God has revealed to us--both oral and written, interpreted infallibly through the Church Magisterium [teaching authority] for the purpose of our salvation). But as to your second comment, yes: no doctrine of the Church (whether proclaimed ex cathedra by a pope, or formally defined at an ecumenical council (and ratified by the pope), etc.) can ever contradict any other doctrine of the Church, nor can it ever change in its substance. (It can be reworded or reformulated for new audiences, or fleshed out for new details, but it can never be abrogated or contradicted.)
In Christ,
Brian
Paul and Brian, what you're saying about the transmission of Catholic dogma is very similar to Orthodox Judaism in structure.
1. There was a teaching period in antiquity (life of Jesus / the wanderings in the desert).
2. Part of the material was written down during that period or soon afterwards (New Testament / Pentatuch).
3. The rest of the material was transmitted orally, but accurately (deposit of faith / oral Torah). It was kept by a select group (the church hierarchy / the Torah sages).
4. From time to time it became useful to write down in explicit and immutable form what had been transmitted orally until then (ex cathedra doctrines and those formally defined by an ecumenical council / Mishnah and Talmud).
5. There are people trusted to teach out of what is still oral tradition (pope and bishops / gdoley Israel).
Do I miss something?
Ori, I have no idea. I was raised Roman Catholic because my parents were, because their parents were, etc etc to the beginning of time. Went to a Baptist service once, and a United service once, but other than that, haven't put too much effort into finding where I belong. I'm not sure organized religion really fits with me (again, plague of frogs), but am baptizing my babies and sending them to Catholic school.
Ehhh.. Brian, how long did that TAKE? :P And thank you for treading carefully with me. You can imagine I've heard it all though -- my own mother insisted I abort my children right through my 8th months of pregnancies.
I don't think this is clear, and I interpret it differently:
"Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
Jesus gave his disciples the power to absolve sins or retain them (again, not a bible expert here). This has been extended to priests.. right? (And it's a logical problem with me, not an emotional revulsion.) So uhh..
could this not be extended to ALL of Christianity? The church was pretty new back then (maybe just the 12 members?).. so why not? He's teaching forgiveness from and to all. I think the pope condoning communion for pro-abortionists doesn't condone abortion at all -- it just shows compassion and forgiveness. If my daughter decided to kick puppies, and then laughed about it with her friends, I'd still FEED her. I'd still love her and forgive her and try to gently lead her into a life of NOT kicking puppies, but my goodness. I wouldn't let her starve.
Oh. And these don't exist! "...a loving, stable, self-sacrificing man who would rather die than leave you or use you"
But let me know if you find one for me. :)
Can I make one more rant about the Church? It's my biggest one. (Does this really waste bandwidth? And also, what is bandwidth?) I don't know how it works in the states, but in Canada (maybe this is more a gov't issue. I really shouldn't get into it, but it's all good e-therapy now and then), the gov't offers a tax deduction for any money given in charity. So when the basket is passed around, everyone throws in an envelope with their name on it so that they can be credited at the end of the year when they do their taxes. Charity should be given in secret. Maybe it's more the mentality of those in church than the actual church itself.
We should move on to another of Paul's posts. I wonder if he'd hate us for that.
Cube girl, would you mind if I interspaced my replies?
Ori, I have no idea. I was raised Roman Catholic because my parents were, because their parents were, etc etc to the beginning of time. Went to a Baptist service once, and a United service once, but other than that, haven't put too much effort into finding where I belong.
I suspect you'd be happier if you did put in the effort. Having a community of like-minded people is wonderful. Then again, I don't know you much, but I do know you're terribly busy. You're a single mother heroically raising two kids on her own. I doubt I could have done that. Maybe you don't have the time and energy right now.
You can imagine I've heard it all though -- my own mother insisted I abort my children right through my 8th months of pregnancies.
Good job on withstanding the pressure! I'd say "God bless you", but given you have the kids, He already has. I suspect your mother isn't very Catholic, BTW.
If my daughter decided to kick puppies, and then laughed about it with her friends, I'd still FEED her. I'd still love her and forgive her and try to gently lead her into a life of NOT kicking puppies, but my goodness. I wouldn't let her starve.
Is denying communion to somebody equivalent to starving them? People can live without communion, and I know of what I speak. I'm Jewish and so never had any.
Oh. And these don't exist! "...a loving, stable, self-sacrificing man who would rather die than leave you or use you"
But let me know if you find one for me. :)
Sorry, I'm already taken. Actually, not really sorry - I'm extremely happy to be with my wife. I'd look for another women over her dead body (literally - if one of us dies the other should remarry because we have four kids who'd be better off with a full complement of parents).
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