Wednesday, August 22, 2007

Gay Felons' Relationships Equal To Marriage, Rules Federal Judge

Let me set the scene. A pair of homosexual drug dealers, Roberts & Mangini, were convicted, jailed and then paroled.

One of the conditions of their probation was that they can't associate with other felons, including each other (this rule is known as Standard Condition No. 9). They sued, with the help of the (of course!) ACLU, on the grounds that they were spouses:
The rules for enforcing Standard Condition No. 9, it turns out, include a blanket exception that allows a convicted felon on probation to associate with another convicted felon if they are spouses or blood relatives. Mangini and Roberts claimed this unfairly discriminated against them, violating their rights to "due process" and equal protection of the law under the Fifth Amendment.

"They considered, and still consider, themselves to be spouses," [U.S. District Judge Marvin] Katz explained in his July 31 opinion. "Defendants were in every way a family."

The judge pointed out that the two men took in Roberts' niece as a foster child; and at one point in his opinion, he called them the niece's "two fathers."
...

Katz now swung for the fences. Citing
Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 Supreme Court decision which absurdly held that the Constitution prohibits states from banning same-sex sodomy, he declared: "The Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the right to intimate association."

Because of this, he argued, probation rules must treat two unmarried men who claim an "intimate association" just as if they were a married couple or a brother and a sister. "The Probation Office has violated defendants' Fifth Amendment right to equal protection by refusing to grant defendants permission to associate with each other, while maintaining a policy of granting such permission to similarly situated individuals in other kinds of family relationships (i.e., siblings, parent and child, and spouses)," he said.
[Emphasis added.]
So a pair of convicted drug dealers sodomizing each other deserve the same respect for their relationship as I and my wife raising our children to be good citizens?

This judge obviously started with the ruling he wanted to make, and then searched for the laws he could cite to justify it. I wonder what other interesting rulings he's made?

While we're not paying attention, the courts are marching on in the movement to elevate every sort of "alternative" relationship to the same status as real marriage. Or else to drag marriage down to the degraded level of those other relationships.

While we worry about Iraq, what will the President do to stop the courts' concerted efforts to destroy traditional marriage? What will the presidential candidates do to preserve the traditional family as the basic building block of our society?

This is why we need an amendment to the Constitution protecting traditional marriage, and overturning Lawrence v. Texas. But we'll never live to see it.

I continue to believe that the only hope for America, and it's a slim hope, is that what we used to call "decent people" will raise their kids with their outdated, countercultural standards of decency, while the libertines will continue to come together in barren, contraceptive, abortive and homosexual relationships. Our grandchildren should sufficiently outnumber theirs that they'll be able to set things to right without too much difficulty.

Maybe some of us will live to see that.

24 comments:

Frank Brockerman said...

If my best friend married someone I in no way, shape or form, liked, would have have any impact on the sanctity and love in my marriage? Not in the least.

Every day people get married and engaged that I feel shouldn't. Yet they don't effect peoples marriages.

I have yet to hear a logical argument as to how two people living in their own way somehow invalidates or lessons some other peoples lives.

If you want to hold me to your religious standard, can I hold you to mine?

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

I have yet to hear a logical argument as to how two people living in their own way somehow invalidates or lessons some other peoples lives.

Frank, if marriage can be anything, then it will be nothing.

Marriage is a certain thing, for a certain purpose. Always has been. Marriage pre-dates every nation, and every religion.

Now people want to change it. They have no right.

You and I cannot be father and son. We are not brothers. Neither can we be husbands to each other. It is not a matter of rights. Marriage is no more an artificial construct than those other relationships I mentioned.

Marriage is specific relationship for a specific purpose. That purpose is the engendering and raising of the next generation. It is vitally important to every society that there be a replacement generation coming up, and that someone be raising them right. Both research and experience teaches us that this is best done by heterosexual, two-parent families.

It's not about imposing religion. It's about raising children.

More here.

Jay Anderson said...

Well said, Paul.

Frank Brockerman said...

Hey Jay,

If marriage can be anything, than I can make it as special, loving, and committed as I would like. If you really want to save the sanctity of marriage, let's make divorce illegal. Because from first-hand experience, I can tell you that divorce really destroys a marriage.

It really has nothing to do with raising children as you assert. Otherwise, you and everyone else wouldn't be against gay marriage, you would be against gay adoption or gay parenting and trying to make that illegal before marriage.


So it is about marriage. If one studies the history of marriage, it has had many different purposes and reasons throughout history. Leaders of countries didn't marry out of love or to have children, but to solidify partnerships and alliances. Leaders of other countries only married to have an heir to the throne, love and alliances be damned.

Still other marriages were arranged to benefit the families of the bride and groom. And others were out of pure love.

So, there has never been a set standard for marriage - which is officiated, more often than not, by churches.

Your religion says two people of the same sex cannot marry (although the bible does not). And if you are going to allow your religion to dictate what I can and cannot do in any way, then you must allow mine to dictate what you can and cannot do.

And it is about imposing religion - because some religions allow it; yours does not and you want yours to apply to everyone.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Frank, I'm all for making divorce much harder.

The historical marriages you've cited are representative of only a tiny fraction of a percentage of marriages. And in each case, you've only addressed the reasons for selecting certain partners, not the goals of the marriages themselves. Even in an arranged marriage between rulers of different countries, the idea was to produce offspring who could rule both in a permanent peaceful state.

Childbearing and child rearing is and has always been the essential purpose of marriage. It's not even about being "special" and "loving" -- although you got it right with "committed". Marriage is a commitment to stay with a person, have children together, and raise them together.

This benefits society in ways that homosexual relationships can never hope to do.

That's not just what I say, but what every human civilization throughout history has said.

Gay "marriage" has nothing to offer to society to make it attractive to the rest of us. All the arguments in favor of boil down to insults, non sequiturs, and plaintive cries of "I want it!"

Gays have chosen to live an alternative lifestyle; it is disingenuous in the extreme for them to then claim that they've chosen the same lifestyle.

And, for the record, I am against gay adoption. So is the Catholic Church, which is being forced out of the adoption business in many places because while it doesn't attempt to prevent gays from adopting, it declines to facilitate those adoptions. This is enough in Boston, in San Francisco, and Britain, to say that if gays can't adopt through Catholic Charities, then no one may.

Which only proves that gay adoption is much more about endorsing homosexuality than it is about finding good homes for children.

It's still not about religion; I haven't made a religious argument here. You clearly wouldn't acknowledge the validity of a religious argument. Gay marriage has nothing to offer society; society has no motivation to reward it.

I'm disappointed with you; by the tone of your first comment, I'd hoped you might have some new rational argument I hadn't heard. But it's the same old same old. "Religious oppression!" "Equal rights!" "I want it!"

I'm helping to produce a new generation of taxpayers, soldiers, employers, teachers. What does your gay relationship produce?

Cathy_of_Alex said...

Paul: Your closing paragraph is brilliant.

Frank Brockerman said...

grrr...i hate it when you write a long post or comment and submit it...and it disappears. lol.

If you want to make the argument that marriages produce teachers and lawyers and soldiers, you must also concede that they produce molesters and murderers.

In addition, why are you not against child-free marriages? There are many couples out there who marry and make a conscious choice to never have children. If the sole purpose of marriage is procreation, then this should be illegal. As should babies born out of wedlock.

And gays do not choose to be gay anymore than you choose to be straight. It is biological.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

You might try writing your comments off line.

I do concede that some people are bad. But again, people are a net positive. Ergo, it's worthwhile having children. Why would you bring this up? Do you hate your own species?

I'm not against child-free marriages, because it's only incidental to marriage that some of them, for various reasons, have no children. The essential (not sole) purpose of marriage is children. Children are the essence of marriage, but incidentally, some marriages aren't fertile.

If it helps you, I do oppose artificial contraception, as you'd know if you actually read this blog.

Finally, it's not biological. No reputable study comes to that conclusion.

Even if it were, though, biological urges can be resisted. Some people have inborn urges to torture small animals. That doesn't make it OK.

No one chooses their temptations; but we all choose whether to give in to them.

And even if it were, homosexual marriage still wouldn't have anything to offer society.

Vir Speluncae Orthodoxae said...

No it's not biological, and there is no conclusive evidence to support that argument that one is compelled to commit buggery. "The devil made me do it" is replaced by "I have to be what I am." This gets really tiring.

That same argument is posed by pedophiles and polygymists who say that they are born that way, and that they aren't hurting you. I even personally knew a few people that insist they were born "poly-amorous" and were compelled to fornicate with multiple people-male or female or both, and their ersatz religion was Wiccan -a phony system that is basically "make it up as you go" which was in truth invented by white liberal babyboomers and has no valid connection to the beiliefs that the Europeans voluntarilty quit.

And it must have been a huge blow to white liberals when the Dalai Lama condemned sodomy. Your argument is a paralogism. Take it from someone who's been there.

Widespread acceptance of same sex practices has yet to produce a free society. You can mock Christianity because you live in a free society because of Christianity. The last time pagans and so-called homosexuals were in charge millions of Jews died.

It's not homophobic to say that fornicating with a person of the same sex is sick. It's not homophobic to say that marriage is between a man and a woman. It's not homophobic to say that sodomy inevitibly leads to disease. It's not homophobic to condemn sodomy simply to save people's lives.

The child-free argument is just ridiculous because liberals abort children and encourge buggery. It's right up there with liberals saying that the only people who can support war are veterans, nevermind that liberal saint FDR never served in the military.

And yes divorce should be difficult, and getting married should be made far more difficult.

And to hammer the nail : http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2007/08/19/radical_gay_activist_we_lose

Frank Brockerman said...

Comparing gay marriage to pedophiles? Are you serious?

Comparing gay marriage to torturing small animals?

Illogical arguments do nothing to further debate and discussion.

There is small, but growing evidence of homosexuality being driven by genes. http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2003/12/02/the_biological_basis_of_homosexuality/

And yes, some marriages are not fertile - but by choice. It is those that should be outlawed if we are to follow your main argument that marriage is for procreation.

If you want to be consistent, then be consistent. Either marriage is for procreation only, or it's not. If you allow some instances of non-procreative marriages, then that undermines your argument against gay marriage.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Comparing gay marriage to pedophiles? Are you serious?

Comparing gay marriage to torturing small animals?

Illogical arguments do nothing to further debate and discussion.


It's not illogical. If you say that homosexuality must be OK because it's inherent, then I can point out other inherent urges and note that you don't think those are OK. Just because a trait is innate doesn't necessarily mean that it's morally positive.

There is small, but growing evidence of homosexuality being driven by genes.

Wishful thinking. That article is four years old, and cites no studies that conclude that homosexuality is innate. Surely that's not the best you can do. If it is, you haven't demonstrated your point.

And yes, some marriages are not fertile - but by choice. It is those that should be outlawed if we are to follow your main argument that marriage is for procreation.

No, because in the case of a heterosexual marriage, you can't know in advance that the marriage won't be fertile. Even when a couple resolves in advance not to have children, or to delay having children, they often change their minds or other factors intervene.

I'm very consistent.

And gay marriage still has nothing to offer society. You'll lose this debate if you can't answer this point.

Frank Brockerman said...

You're saying that heterosexual marriages offer children to society. And that homosexual marriages offer nothing to society because they do not produce children.

Yet you keep brushing aside the fact that there are many heterosexual couples who are very fertile and choose to never have children - even though they are biologically capable. You keep bringing up infertility. I'm not talking about infertile couples or couples that eventually have children. I'm talking about couples that consciously make a decision, and then follow through with it, to never bear children.

That is the point I'm saying you are inconsistent about.

If homosexual marriages have nothing to offer b/c they do not produce kids, then deliberately childless marriages have nothing to offer as well.

And I never said that the study concluded anything. But just that signs were pointing in that direction.

Just suppose - whether it happens or not - that one day they find that homosexuality is genetic. Then what?

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Yet you keep brushing aside the fact that there are many heterosexual couples who are very fertile and choose to never have children

I'm not brushing it aside. At the time a heterosexual couple marries, it is unknown whether they will have children. Therefore, society is motivated to encourage them to marry in the hope that they will have children.

Some intend from the first to have children, and do.

Others intend to have children, and aren't able to.

Some intend from the first not to have children, but end up having children anyway.

And some intend never to have children, and really never do.

Only that last group falls into those you're talking about. But until they've grown old, you can't know which couples will fall into which group. Therefore, society has an interest in encouraging all heterosexual marriage.

A homosexual relationship will never produce children, and so society has no motivation to promote, reward or encourage homosexual relationships; indeed, it has a disincentive due to the health risks involved in homosexual conduct.

If you can't see this, I can only think it's because you're being intentionally obtuse.

And I never said that the study concluded anything. But just that signs were pointing in that direction.

I said that no credible studies conclude that homosexuality is genetic. And you brought up this old piece that only "suggests" that it "might" be. That's the basis for remaking human society?

I don't think so.

Just suppose - whether it happens or not - that one day they find that homosexuality is genetic. Then what?

I've already answered this:

"Even if it were, though, biological urges can be resisted. Some people have inborn urges to torture small animals. That doesn't make it OK.

No one chooses their temptations; but we all choose whether to give in to them.

And even if it were, homosexual marriage
still wouldn't have anything to offer society.


So come on, Frank, I'm still waiting. Why on earth should I endorse homosexual "marriage"? What's in it for me?

And don't try to say fairness, because it's fundamentally unfair to claim that a relationship based solely on the selfish pleasure of the participants is equal to a relationship purposed with the selfless act of begetting and raising children.

And that is the answer to your initial question, of how does a homosexual relationship hurt my marriage. By reducing it to a relationship based only on selfish pleasure, rather than an institution charged with the great duty of raising the next generation of citizens.

Frank Brockerman said...

Please don't argue that marriages are all about raising children - unless you're only coming from a religious, Western point of view. No where does it say that you have to procreate to be married.

In many other cultures around the world, marriage is not just for procreation and there are many different marital arrangements.

Love is selfish pleasure? A lot of people get married for love, dude. Not just to have lots of kids on an already over-populated planet where we're eating resources faster than we can mine and cut them down.

And as I made plainly clear twice now - I am only talking about couples who consciously choose BEFORE getting married to NOT have children. I'm not talking about any other scenario. This one specific scenario should be illegal as well - if you want to be consistent. You must admit that they offer nothing to society either - if marriage is only for procreation.

Your main argument is that homosexual marriage has nothing to offer society. What does modern art - especially modern art I don't like - offer society? Or really bad music? What does hunting offer society when I'm a vegetarian? Maybe it offers some parts of society something - but not others. The same argument can be made for homosexual marriage. (I'm sure you know that many people made this same argument for interracial marriage and school desegregation).


I can put up just as many straw men as you and look blindly at the artificial offerings of society as well.

And, if it ever is proven that homosexuality is NOT a choice - you then want people to fight it?? To fight loving another human?

And please don't retort with your pedantic comparison to torturing small animals. Because A. loving another human does harm to no one. If it somehow cheapens your own marriage then you have a serious "keeping up with the Jones'" issue and B. I hope you're against war and the urge people feel to kill one another. Because that would make a lot more sense about the offering of something to society.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Frank, you've gone off the deep end. You're really starting to sound unhinged. Maybe you should take a break and come back later when you're better composed.

I never said marriage was solely about children. Marriage is essentially about children. The essential purpose of marriage is children. Everywhere people have lived, for as long as there have been people, they have married and had children. Mostly in pairs.

You're correct to say that you don't have to procreate to be married. But society's interest in marriage is procreation. So even that group you keep harping about that doesn't intend to have kids, some of them still do and society benefits from encouraging those people to marry.

Homosexual relationships are about pleasure (and, if you insist, love) for the participants. What they give to each other, what they get from each other. They are inward-looking. They cannot procreate. This is their essential character. Society doesn't care about them.

Heterosexual marriages, most often, are about raising the next generation of children. Society has a vital interest in rewarding, encouraging and facilitating this activity.

No, virtually no marriage is solely about children. But children are what marriages leave behind when they're over.

I'm glad you realize that your remarks about modern art, hunting, bad music, etc., are straw men, because of course, you're right, society has no interest in encouraging those either, and we shouldn't subsidize them.

And no, this is a different argument than the one against interracial marriage and school desegregation. I knew you wouldn't leave before you played the race card.

Just because a trait is inherent, doesn't mean it's good. But it will never be proven that homosexual conduct is not a choice, because it is. As another commenter linked above, even gay activists know this.

Lastly, by your utter rejection of the notion that society should not encourage or reward behavior that does not benefit society, may I infer your admission that homosexual relationships do in fact have no benefit to offer to society?

Frank Brockerman said...

"But society's interest in marriage is procreation"

Says who? Where and when has it been decided?

Regarding homosexual marriage, you say that "Society doesn't care about them." Wrong, sir, you do not care about them. There are many people in this and other societies that do care about all of God's creations equally - just like Jesus preached about.

"But it will never be proven that homosexual conduct is not a choice, because it is." You can't say this, lol. You don't know, any more than I do scientifically, if it's a choice or not. Now, that may be your opinion, but not fact.

And to reply to your last paragraph, I personally feel that, even those straw men I put up, do in fact contribute something to society, if not to me directly.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

That's right, Frank, it's all just my opinion.

I made up heterosexual convenant marriage on my own, and imposed it, God-like, on the entire world, retroactively through history.

I maintain it solely through the force of my words on this blog, and if you can only dissuade me, then gays everywhere can step forth into a land of marital milk and honey.

If you are so for charging everyone for things they don't want or need, then I fear your arguments won't get much traction. That view is elitist, not populist, and most folks don't appreciate it.

Unfortunately for you, it seems that your powers of reasoning and argument are not up to the task of making the case to make fundamental changes to the nature of human society. It's sad; from your first comment, I had higher hopes of your level of discourse than this.

In a democracy, the way to get what you want is to persuade others to vote your way. I'm afraid you've failed utterly here. I've probably made several people understand better why they oppose gay marriage. And you probably have, too.

Frank Brockerman said...

When in doubt - make personal attacks. Very mature.

This convent of marriage you speak of - is this a law somewhere? No.

Is it religious? Yes.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Oh, those weren't personal attacks. That was a performance evaluation. If they were personal attacks, there would be no question about it.

And, in case you haven't noticed, I have no doubts.

You, on the other hand, are left without arguments, and have simply gone back to asserting baselessly that marriage is some sort of religious construct.

And too, I made no reference to a "convent of marriage". You might have more success answering my arguments if you were to actually read them.

Covenant marriage still exists in many places, and was common in the United States until well after I was born. The easy availability of divorce, which you condemned earlier (though perhaps insincerely), has done much civic damage.

But no, covenant marriage, that is, marriage for life, is not unique to Christianity. Much as you might like to wish it were.

Traditional marriage, as I started out by saying, pre-dates every religion and every government. Owned by no one, no one has the right to redefine it to suit themselves.

And one more thing, Frank. In this exchange, you have made no attempt to present any sort of positive argument. All your "arguments" have been (rather feeble) attempts to tear down my positions.

I repeatedly invited you to paint a picture of the golden world of your dreams where gays are free to marry and live as masters over all they survey; or whatever your case would have been.

Your negative attacks show your attitude: you don't want gay marriage as a good thing in itself. You want gay marriage because you know it's an assault on a traditional lifestyle that you hate.

This is how you argue, and this is how, if you and your ilk were to be elected, you would govern. It would be an endless assault on tradition, virtue, and liberty.

And before you lash out and start typing away your rage at my words, let me ask you to stop and think for a minute, if you're able, about how you might have created such an impression in a total stranger.

It might be worth a moment's consideration to you.

Frank Brockerman said...

On 8/24 @ 7:54 you said: "And too, I made no reference to a "convent of marriage". You might have more success answering my arguments if you were to actually read them."

On 8/24 @ 4:19 you said: "made up heterosexual convenant marriage on my own, and imposed it, God-like, on the entire world, retroactively through history."


I never once mentioned anything, anywhere about a convenant marriage. You first brought that into our discussion.


In your last post you assert: "Traditional marriage, as I started out by saying, pre-dates every religion and every government. Owned by no one, no one has the right to redefine it to suit themselves."

One, where is your proof for this? Where is your proof that "traditional" marriage pre-dates every religion and every government?

Two, if it is owned by no one - than everyone has a right to define it however they wish. That's call freedom and liberty. For someone who keeps bringing that up - I find it hard you don't see that.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Actually, I was making fun of you. I spoke of "covenant marriage". You mentioned a "convent of marriage".

I hoping you know the difference between a convent and a covenant.

You want me to "prove" the antiquity of marriage. No. Go read some history. It'll do you good.

Finally, if you want to define marriage anyway you like, go ahead. Just don't ask me to recognize your version, nor teach my kids to recognize it, nor demand that the government recognize it.

I am fascinated that you still have so little interest in persuasion, yet you keep coming back.

Frank Brockerman said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Frank Brockerman said...

Making fun of me - personal attacks: yeah, good thing about being a mature adult and conversing about facts. In my humble opinion, you're very arrogant and rude.

You just said: "You want me to "prove" the antiquity of marriage. No. Go read some history. It'll do you good."

Sorry dude, YOU are the one who asserted this claim. You cannot go around just making stuff up and then tell people to figure out where you got your ideas from. If you want to make respectable arguments, then use facts that others can verify. All the rest is just opinion.

I would still like to know where you found this information out. When people don't tell you their sources - odds are they don't have any.

You also said: "I am fascinated that you still have so little interest in persuasion, yet you keep coming back."

Dude - what is it with the attacks on my character? Facts and figures are the subject of debates. Why do you keep bringing things like this into it? Aside from my comment about your arrogance, I have been debating the logical foundations of your argument - as you should be doing to mine. But you're not.

If you continue, then, sadly, I will have little interest in talking with you further.

Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

It may be that I am very arrogant and rude. It may also be that you've forgotten who is the host and who the guest in this forum and it may even be that you've earned, or at least provoked, any abuse you've gotten from me.

As for "proving" the history of marriage, no, I'm not making stuff up. A quick glance at Wikipedia or About.com will quickly show you that two-person heterosexual marriage is so pervasive that only the exceptions are ever mentioned. There. That's a fact you can verify.

If you have so little knowledge of human history that you think that I "made up" the fact that marriage has always been between a man and woman, what value is there in continuing this discussion with you?

And it is no attack on your character to note that you show little interest in trying to persuade me of anything. You have offered me no alternative to believe other than what I do.

I have even told you what I need to hear to persuade me, and you have only rejected that standard, insisting that I should agree with you -- not because you have told me what I need to hear, but because you have told me only what you want to say.

You have tried futilely to undermine my positions, and offered none of your own for me to question or you to defend.

As to your warning that you will have little interest in talking with me further. Well, I'm warned.

But I won't be losing any sleep over it.